Pope Francis died on Easter Monday at the age of 88. He was a complex leader who was hailed by some as a reformist but was too traditional for others. To help place Pope Francis in context, Good Authority editor Nadia E. Brown recently spoke with Annie Selak, an expert in feminist ecclesiology and director of the Georgetown University Women’s Center.
Nadia E. Brown: Dr. Annie Selak, you are a feminist Catholic theologian who studies church authority by trying to understand the role of power in theology. Let’s begin with Pope Francis’ legacy. The impact of a papacy is often felt after a pope’s death. What impact will Pope Francis’ papacy have, both within and outside the Catholic Church?
Annie Selak: Pope Francis’ legacy includes reform of the Catholic Church and a renewed sense of the relevance of the church in the world. His impact includes changes to church teaching, but most of what he is remembered for is his approach. He made people feel welcome. He was fun.
When Pope Francis was first elected pope, he appeared in Saint Peter’s Square without the traditional red garments of the pope, known as a mozzetta. Instead, he wore a simple white cassock and his own cross, garments that are familiar to all who are baptized. And he asked people of the world to pray for him, not just Catholics. He was buried this week wearing well-worn black orthopedic shoes, not the traditional red Prada shoes.
There are countless examples of Pope Francis reaching out to those on the margins of society. When he came to Washington, DC, he dined at a homeless shelter, and met with homeless people. He didn’t dine with the most powerful people of the world, but with those who are excluded. In the Vatican, he welcomed those who were unhoused into a palazzo. He video-called a small Christian community in Gaza, a parish called Holy Trinity Parish. He continued this even when he was hospitalized. Think of all the demands on his time as a world leader – yet he made time every day to connect with people who are in the most visceral state of persecution.
Even his last days reveal this priority. Hospitalized for several weeks, he rallied and appeared one last time in public during Easter. He unexpectedly showed up in St. Peter’s Square, thanked his nurse for taking care of him, prayed for peace in Gaza, and died the next day.
Pope Francis’ life and legacy gives us unique insights into how church teaching and practice often do not align. How does church teaching relate to practice? And what role, if any, did Pope Francis have in changing church teaching?
In the Catholic Church, there are levels of teaching authority and not everything that the pope says enjoys teaching authority. For example, people often credit Pope Francis with making the church more welcoming to LGBTQ Catholics. When asked about gay priests, his response was, “Who am I to judge?” He did not change any teaching in the church – his comment had no teaching authority. Yet, he changed the atmosphere surrounding LGBTQ Catholics. Instead of arguing over teaching, he was kind and welcoming. His “Who am I to judge?” comment had no teaching authority yet made a huge difference in practice, how people felt personally, and how they perceived the church.
Pope Francis doesn’t fall neatly into categories as a reformer. A lot of his contributions centered on internal procedures and organization in the Curia, the bureaucracy of the Vatican. He didn’t change any teaching around women’s ordination to the priesthood or diaconate. Instead, he removed the requirement that leaders of the Curia need to be cardinals (and therefore men) and appointed women in high-ranking roles in the Vatican Curia.
A critical part of understanding Pope Francis’ role as a reformer is to understand what church teaching is, and what it isn’t. The core of church teaching – dogma and doctrine – cannot be changed. Dogma refers to the central components of the faith, such as believing that there is one God, Jesus is the only Son of God, and Jesus was fully human and fully divine. Imagine a series of concentric circles; this is the innermost circle. The next ring is doctrine, which is how dogma is lived out. From there, the outer circle looks at practices. Practices can and have changed over time. Catholics used to abstain from eating meat on Fridays, for instance, and no longer do.
Pope Francis was pushed about expanding women’s roles in the church, such as ordination to the diaconate and priesthood. He was also criticized by advocates for women’s ordination. Can you explain church teaching on women’s ordination?
History and tradition are very important in the Catholic Church. To begin to answer this question, we can look to examples of women in ministerial positions in scripture and history. This is an important framing because it reorients the question from being a “progressive” topic or only of interest to liberal countries and instead makes it an essential question of practice and tradition.
When we look at the issue of women’s ordination, a pivotal part of this discussion is what type of teaching this is. It is not dogma. Is it doctrine or practice? Some conservative theologians argue that Pope Francis did not have the power and authority to change the practice of women’s ordination. Pope John Paul II asserted that women’s ordination was “a closed issue,” and not something that the church can change its teaching on. Yet at the same time, who gets to define what’s a live question or not? Whether the church has the authority to expand the genders that can be ordained depends on whether you believe that’s dogma, doctrine, or practice.
Pope Francis did not do anything to open the question of women’s ordination to the priesthood, which he could have done. He could have convened a panel or a working group. However, Pope Francis did make advances towards recognizing women’s ministry in the church. He brought more attention to Mary Magdalene, who was the first person who Jesus appeared to, and called her “the apostle to the apostles.” He elevated her memorial day (July 22) to become a feast day celebrated by the global church.
There’s another crucial part of church teaching: In order for church teaching to be authoritative, it needs to be lived out by the faithful. The Latin word for it is the sensus fidei, the sense of the faithful. It functions almost like a fail safe. If a pope were to say, “Here’s this new teaching that I teach authoritatively,” and the faithful don’t believe it, then it doesn’t have authority.
The sense of the faithful is not transactional or definitely measurable. No one gets together to accept or reject teaching in a vote. There is no democratic assessment. Instead, the sense of the faithful is something that the leaders in the church are supposed to take sense of. It is predicated on relationships. The bishops should know what the people in their diocese think.
To this end, Francis reformed synods, the global gathering of church leaders. For the first time, non-ordained people were allowed to participate. First, non-ordained men were allowed to vote. In the most recent synod, he allowed many lay people or non-ordained people to vote. I love pointing out Julia Oseka, a 22-year-old student at St. Joseph’s University. She had full voting privileges in the most recent synod. This was very new, and the synod issued a final document in November. This document enjoys full teaching authority.
Paragraph 60 about women’s roles in the church declares, “There is no reason or impediment that should prevent women from carrying out leadership roles in the church: what comes from the Holy Spirit cannot be stopped.” The question then becomes, “Did the reforms that were started by Francis come from the Holy Spirit?” If so, they will not be stopped. But if they came from him and not the Holy Spirit, then the next pope could reverse those changes.
Since his passing, many have been discussing a dichotomous view of Francis’ religious beliefs and their impact on the church as well as world politics. He upset traditionalists with his progressive views – including those on climate change, refugees, and treatment of the LGBTQ. Yet others claim that he did not go far enough to be a true reformer of the church, citing his views on women entering the priesthood. You argue that the American understanding of politics does not translate easily to Catholic theology. What are we getting wrong?
American politics does not map on to Catholic theology and ministry. This is illustrated by the fact that two of the most well-known Catholics in U.S. politics are Joe Biden and JD Vance. Both are practicing Catholics and describe their faith as central to their lives. At the same time, they disagree on almost every political issue. The teachings of the Catholic Church on abolishing capital punishment, fighting climate change, and welcoming refugees tends to be more in line with the Democratic Party. On the other hand, limiting abortion access is an issue of importance for Republicans. In this last election, Catholics voted overwhelmingly for Trump. This exemplifies why Pope Francis’ legacy doesn’t neatly align with U.S. political designations of conservative or liberal.
Further, Pope Francis’ legacy on welcoming LGBTQ Catholics and women’s roles was a mixed bag. He has a reputation for being welcoming towards LGBTQ Catholics, and he even met with trans men and women. Yet, he also had an outdated view of gender, referring to gender theory as similar to nuclear weapons. What I think is important is that we saw him change over time, especially around gender and sexuality. He was a priest from Argentina who was making sense of the world and trying to lead with mercy. Sometimes he got that right, and sometimes he didn’t. He often said that the church is for “Todos Todos Todos,” for everyone. He tried to live that out, and I think he was limited by his own biases and prejudices.
The papal conclave, the gathering of the College of Cardinals who gather to elect the next pope, will happen soon. Pope Francis diversified the College of Cardinals, but women still are not allowed to attend the conclave. What can we expect in the conclave?
The papal conclave will start on Wednesday, May 7, 16 days after Pope Francis’ death. Conclaves are typically held between 15 and 20 days after a pontiff’s death, allowing the Cardinals to gather from throughout the world.
Campaigning for pope is strictly forbidden. In the days leading up to the conclave, the entire College of Cardinals gathers for general congregations. They discuss the state of the Catholic Church, given the needs of the world and an estimated 1.4 billion Catholics. In a sense, this gives a glimpse of what a cardinal’s priorities will be if he is elected pope. However, the church also believes that the Holy Spirit guides this process. It is less about political maneuvering and more about collective discernment.
Interestingly, Pope Francis appointed 108 of the 133 cardinals expected to vote (cardinals must be under the age of 80 to vote). However, Francis didn’t appoint people who were carbon copies of him. Again, this is less about being liberal or conservative and more about priorities. He appointed people who shared his vision of caring for people on the margins. He appointed more cardinals in the Global South, including 82 cardinals from outside of Europe, which also diversified the College of Cardinals.
However, women will not be part of the conclave. Women’s Ordination Conference has a campaign entitled, “A Woman’s Place is in the Conclave.” Women make up more than half of the church, but will still be excluded from this critical gathering in the life of the church.
The first round of voting will almost certainly result in black smoke from the Sistine Chapel chimney – a sign of a deadlocked vote. From there, each round of voting will consolidate power. The votes are private and anonymous. The public will not be informed of any numbers, or how the conclave is proceeding. Yet at the end of the conclave, white smoke will emerge and we will all gather around our televisions and computers to hear the name of the next pope. I’ll be watching eagerly to see if he is wearing the traditional red robes, or if he models himself on Francis and appears in a simple white cassock.
Nadia E. Brown is a professor of government and the director of Women’s and Gender Studies at Georgetown University. She is the co-author of “Sister Style“ (Oxford University Press, 2021) and author of “Sisters in the Statehouse” (Oxford University Press, 2014).
Annie Selak (she/her/hers) is an expert in feminist ecclesiology. She studies wounds in the church, or moments where the church fails to live into its mission and causes harm. Racism, sexism, and the clergy sex abuse crisis are examples of the church failing to credibly be church. Guided by a feminist methodology, Selak integrates the lived experience of women with a robust vision for the church. Selak serves as director of the Georgetown University Women’s Center.
